278 replies to this topic

[LDubs]

Nah that makes it bad

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[johnlgalt]

I have to agree with Sam.  I hate it when plots become predictable.

[SamuriHL]

Exactly.  Ohhh, she's a skywalker and they're twins and Obi Wan's ghost tells her this.  Oh, she senses that there's still good in him.  She tries to save him by converting him to the good side of the force.  Kylo resists but is defeated by the "Jedi".  Emperor Snoke gets pissed off and force bounces her from the floor to the ceiling a couple dozen times.  She screams "Ben help me" and Kylo suddenly remembers that oh s*** I AM good!  Force grabs Hux's blaster and busts a cap in ole Snoke's ass.  The end.

 

That pretty much cover how it "should" have gone for everyone?

[johnlgalt]

Ayup - that's pretty much what I expected too.

[SamuriHL]

I get it there were a ton of expectations and audiences don't take well to not having them met. However, part of good story writing is going outside of the expectation and challenging the audience. Sometimes they are ready for it sometimes that aren't. The fact that last Jedi is polarized around the people who appreciated a fresh perspective and those who wanted the scripted story line is testament to how well Rian did. I can't wait for March 27 personally. My son's 18 birthday and last Jedi on Blu-ray.

I'm still only barely conscious having dosed myself with benedryl last night, but, I will tell you that what they're building for star wars land in Disney's Hollywood studios is going to absolutely fantastic magic. I got to see where they're building it and it's huge. Then my daughter and I ride star tours. It's been updated for last Jedi already which is awesome. However, where it landed was incredible. Very impressed.

Oh yea, and I bought myself a little something while I was down there. Won't have it for another week or so. Last year for my son's birthday I bought him Anakin/Luke/Rey blue force FX lightsaber. For those not familiar with them they are ultra realistic lightsabers that you can Battle with. I've never seen the one I just got anywhere...I got a "grandfather" lightsaber. Lmao yea I got Darth Vader. The people in the room above us were lucky I had to ship it home cause this would have been their fate had I been able to keep it with me...



Little jerks kept banging on the floor non stop in the middle of the night.

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[johnlgalt]

Exactly.  I've always been of the mind that you can't have the same thing over and over and over again - that's called stagnation, and, in the physical world (excluding us free willed humans), that occurs only when entropy is at maximum.

 

Humans ... do stagnate.  But not the extremes.  Not the really good and the really bad - they don't stagnate - they continue to change.  I saw that in Luke - he had changed - not into a human much less witty version of his own mentor (some of his one liners were not nearly as good as Yoda's - or am I proselytizing because I grew up with the second trilogy as a child?) but into something that he alone would have changed into.  This is not a pathway that Yoda would have gone down, nor Anakin, nor Qui-gon - nobody. This was Luke's, and only Luke's path.

 

I do have issues with some of the mechanics of the film - but I am beginning to suspect that nothing in this film was done as filler material,.  The entire go find the break in artist side arc - all of that had meaning, not just the boy at the end (and I've only seen it the one time, and i caught that then - it was pretty subtle but it was there).  The break in artist, the commentary about the arms dealers serving both sides, the setting free of the animals being used in the races (or was it fights?) for the rich the fact that the entire planet was very bipolar in terms of inhabitants.....

 

I didn't believe it at first, and I was rather disgruntled about that arc - but in reading Rian's commentary on various other aspects of the movie, I am forming a picture that none of this was an accident - it was a very deliberate move to push needed arcs into the storyline for the future - almost as if he did it because he was directing not only this movie but where he wants the next to go as well.

[SamuriHL]

Definitely not by accident.  Think about the underlying tone of this movie and you'll see how it all fits together.  I just read a great article about a topic we've touched upon in this thread about the religious background for Star Wars influences.  Buddhism, Taoism, and even Christianity all play a role in defining the Jedi religion.  And like in modern society, traditional religions are giving way to spiritualism.  This is something that I personally started to migrate to when I was a teenager...reading books like the tao of physics, chaos theory, and quantum mechanics to determine what spirituality really means and what the essence of life is.  It's why Star Wars has always had a HUGE place in my life and will always continue to.  Anyway, back to the point....we've traditionally had the Jedi vs the Sith.  The Empire vs the Rebellion.  The Rebellion vs the First Order.  And this movie brings together the themes that all of it, every single part of it, is the same conflict.  Good vs Evil.  Rich vs Poor.  Arms dealers vs basic humanity.  That even the broader conflicts all boil down to the basic good vs evil construct.  That it's not about ancient religions and hokey weapons.  That it's about people struggling to define their place in the story.  So yes, it's all tied together very tightly.  Everyone had their personal decisions they had to make that brought them closer to the light, or descending in the darkness.  In Rey's case it was quite literal.  In the case of our jerk of a break in master, it was opportunity.  Hilariously enough he was the only one with the right perspective on the whole thing.  They sell you ships and you blow up the First Order.  They sell them ships and they blow you up.  The only people making out are the arms dealers who then have the resources (i.e. money) to make things like those slave races happen.  Greed leads to the dark side, as Yoda has said.  Rian pulled all the punches in this one.  Some of it was very subtle.  Some of it was totally in your face.  All of it had the same relevant message....ultimately your choices are what define you and whether you live in the light or dark side of the force.  It's not about religion or rules or any other nonsense.  Yoda learned that lesson in death.  Luke learned it begrudgingly.  Rey knows it instinctively.  Everyone's all concerned about Rey turning to the dark side and I fleetingly had that thought.  But you know what destroyed that idea for me?  One scene in Force Awakens is all you need to see to know who Rey is through and through.  Go watch the scene where BB-8 is caught in that jackass' net.  Truly WATCH that scene.  All the way up to her being offered 60+ portions for him.  Watch her reactions, watch her actions, and feel her emotions through all that and you will understand who she is.  She is better than Luke.  She's potentially the next Yoda, only, she won't live long enough to make it that far.  She's cut from the same cloth though.

 

That all being said, and Rian did a masterful job at it that's going to take years to digest, we now have to see how Abrams plays the rest of it out.  With the original concept for the trilogy blown out of the water (Force Awakens = Han, Last Jedi = Luke, The Force is in me, I am one with the Force = Leia) because of Carrie's untimely death, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.  But the setup is there for a terrific ending should Abrams decide to get out of his own way and let the content shine.

 

P.S. Another rumor is that Snoke used the same force projection power Luke did to trick Rey and Kylo into thinking he was actually there when he wasn't and is still alive, safe and sound.  

 

P.S.S I bought the books that Rian used to find the power Luke used.  Surprise, he didn't just make it up, it was in the Path to the Jedi manual.

[LDubs]

I have to agree with Sam.  I hate it when plots become predictable.

 

 

Exactly.  Ohhh, she's a skywalker and they're twins and Obi Wan's ghost tells her this.  Oh, she senses that there's still good in him.  She tries to save him by converting him to the good side of the force.  Kylo resists but is defeated by the "Jedi".  Emperor Snoke gets pissed off and force bounces her from the floor to the ceiling a couple dozen times.  She screams "Ben help me" and Kylo suddenly remembers that oh s*** I AM good!  Force grabs Hux's blaster and busts a cap in ole Snoke's rear end.  The end.

 

That pretty much cover how it "should" have gone for everyone?

 

 

Ayup - that's pretty much what I expected too.

 

 

I get it there were a ton of expectations and audiences don't take well to not having them met. However, part of good story writing is going outside of the expectation and challenging the audience. Sometimes they are ready for it sometimes that aren't. The fact that last Jedi is polarized around the people who appreciated a fresh perspective and those who wanted the scripted story line is testament to how well Rian did. I can't wait for March 27 personally. My son's 18 birthday and last Jedi on Blu-ray.

I'm still only barely conscious having dosed myself with benedryl last night, but, I will tell you that what they're building for star wars land in Disney's Hollywood studios is going to absolutely fantastic magic. I got to see where they're building it and it's huge. Then my daughter and I ride star tours. It's been updated for last Jedi already which is awesome. However, where it landed was incredible. Very impressed.

Oh yea, and I bought myself a little something while I was down there. Won't have it for another week or so. Last year for my son's birthday I bought him Anakin/Luke/Rey blue force FX lightsaber. For those not familiar with them they are ultra realistic lightsabers that you can Battle with. I've never seen the one I just got anywhere...I got a "grandfather" lightsaber. Lmao yea I got Darth Vader. The people in the room above us were lucky I had to ship it home cause this would have been their fate had I been able to keep it with me...



Little jerks kept banging on the floor non stop in the middle of the night.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I didn't say I wanted it to be the same, predictable plot - I would not want that either.  And I never said I wasn't ready to be challenged.  What I do have a beef with, and I've mentioned this before, some of y'all disagree, is the weird humor that seemed out of place.  Yes, this is not the first movie with humor.  But there was too much - too much flippant humor that just didn't sit right with me.  Luke flipping the lightsaber over his shoulder.  Luke milking the whatever and drinking the milk... and then goes fishing.  Just seemed weird.  I did like the porgs after giving that some thought.  But I did think that Luke's character was given short shrift here.  I understand that they need to continue with new stories, new characters, but I felt like they just ... didn't give him his due based on the history of that character.  

[SamuriHL]

Mark felt the same way you did initially.  From where we left him in RotJ 30 years + and this is the Luke we have.  It's a difficult transition.  Here's a guy charged with rebuilding the Jedi order after finally becoming a Jedi himself, and now we find him alone and broken, having failed miserably in his task.  Shockingly, Luke is human after all.  In those 30 years he's had time to research the whole Jedi order, learn its past, learn how it failed so badly (under Yoda, might I add).  The failure of the Jedi led to the rise of the most powerful Sith in history who went on to rule the galaxy through fear and destruction.  Luke believes he's learned from those failures in his attempt to rebuild the Jedi order.  And what happens?  A moment of weakness betrays not only his best student, but, also his nephew.  One thing that's not been mentioned is that Ben Solo was never told who his grandfather was.  They felt they were protecting him by keeping that from him, but, after he was "attacked" by Luke and left the Jedi temple burning, he discovered the truth and felt like he was betrayed by his family.  Luke, realizing his failure to rebuild the order and how once again the Jedi have failed, decides enough is enough.  Is that really such a hard story to buy into?  Many bright eyed young people with enthusiasm find that life doesn't work out the way they think and become disillusioned.  We're seriously meant to believe the Jedi are somehow immune?  Given all the failures of the Jedi order?  I also had a difficult time at first with Luke's story, but, the more I look at it, the more I realize how good of a story this really is.

 

The humor isn't for everyone.  That's the problem with humor....it doesn't always resonate with everyone so I can see that as a legit distraction.  I personally liked it but to each their own on that one.  

 

But the idea that Rian went down that path with Luke just for the "shock value" isn't correct.  He actually discussed it directly with Lucas and he agreed that it was the right story to tell.  It took me a bit to wrap my head around it, but, I agree with it.

[johnlgalt]

I didn't say I wanted it to be the same, predictable plot - I would not want that either.  And I never said I wasn't ready to be challenged.  What I do have a beef with, and I've mentioned this before, some of y'all disagree, is the weird humor that seemed out of place.  Yes, this is not the first movie with humor.  But there was too much - too much flippant humor that just didn't sit right with me.  Luke flipping the lightsaber over his shoulder.  Luke milking the whatever and drinking the milk... and then goes fishing.  Just seemed weird.  I did like the porgs after giving that some thought.  But I did think that Luke's character was given short shrift here.  I understand that they need to continue with new stories, new characters, but I felt like they just ... didn't give him his due based on the history of that character.  

 

Yeah, but we adored the deadpanned one liners that Han Solo delivered throughout the second trilogy,  We hung on his words, some times.  We learned all the different titles that he sarcastically used when addressing Leia, whom he was secretly enamored with but would not admit because he thought she had eyes only for Luke....

 

Leia in the slave costume, chained by Jabba.  The friggin lizard -monkey things like Salacious Crumb, - really?  the cheezy ne liners by Yoda to Luke when he was 'testing' Luke's resolve to learn the ways of the Jedi....

 

I could go on and on and on....

 

And that is hte principle reason I don't agree with you on this issue - I see the ones in this movie (and even the last) as merely an extension of what we were exposed to as kids and teens.

[johnlgalt]

Mark felt the same way you did initially.  From where we left him in RotJ 30 years + and this is the Luke we have.  It's a difficult transition.  Here's a guy charged with rebuilding the Jedi order after finally becoming a Jedi himself, and now we find him alone and broken, having failed miserably in his task.  Shockingly, Luke is human after all.  In those 30 years he's had time to research the whole Jedi order, learn its past, learn how it failed so badly (under Yoda, might I add).  The failure of the Jedi led to the rise of the most powerful Sith in history who went on to rule the galaxy through fear and destruction.  Luke believes he's learned from those failures in his attempt to rebuild the Jedi order.  And what happens?  A moment of weakness betrays not only his best student, but, also his nephew.  One thing that's not been mentioned is that Ben Solo was never told who his grandfather was.  They felt they were protecting him by keeping that from him, but, after he was "attacked" by Luke and left the Jedi temple burning, he discovered the truth and felt like he was betrayed by his family.  Luke, realizing his failure to rebuild the order and how once again the Jedi have failed, decides enough is enough.  Is that really such a hard story to buy into?  Many bright eyed young people with enthusiasm find that life doesn't work out the way they think and become disillusioned.  We're seriously meant to believe the Jedi are somehow immune?  Given all the failures of the Jedi order?  I also had a difficult time at first with Luke's story, but, the more I look at it, the more I realize how good of a story this really is.

 

The humor isn't for everyone.  That's the problem with humor....it doesn't always resonate with everyone so I can see that as a legit distraction.  I personally liked it but to each their own on that one.  

 

But the idea that Rian went down that path with Luke just for the "shock value" isn't correct.  He actually discussed it directly with Lucas and he agreed that it was the right story to tell.  It took me a bit to wrap my head around it, but, I agree with it.

 

Yeah, you have to put your emotions aside for a moment and really rationally apply your thinking to what the back story is here in the movie to understand where Luke was in this movie, and how he had gotten there.  As with a lot of blockbuster projects, there just never is enough time - this could easily be made into a season long series that could cover various side arcs and nuances that they cannot cover in 3 hours.

 

But I'm also the guy that starts telling everyone when a character is about to do something that is so pre-defined in terms of plot development, that I sometimes piss people off when I say things are going to happen prior to them happening - a lot like your suppositions on various plot lines for shows that you watch (most of which you're spot on, BTW - I suspect we have that in common) - but this movie was one of the ones where I had very, very few opportunities to do so, because not only was the story enchanting, but it really made you think (if you allowed yourself to contemplate versus just have an emotional reaction to it).  You had to think furiously about every scene and what happened, all the while watching a new scene, and it was not very predictable, for the most part.

 

But the best part is that it's not just god vs evil, good triumphs, and everyone is happy.  it's not just black and white - it's not just history and status quo and everything moving along as it always has.  There is a lot of substance to the plot.  The characters are much better developed than it seems on the surface, and everything in there happened for a reason.

 

Of course, hindsight also helps with this process (as does reading all of Sam's posts on the subject lol).

[sparky697]

Count me in the loving the one liner group. Loved it when he threw the light sabre.
I guess I really liked it because it was a bit more realistic in that the good side doesn't win every battle. Hero's don't always make it back, Rogue One, like in the fairytales. This really doesn't sugarcoat that fact in that all of the good guys can now fit on one small ship. That's some pretty heavy stuff.

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[SamuriHL]

Indeed.  They certainly did not sugar coat it at all.  I liked the humor, too.  You wait 2 years to see how Luke reacts to being handed that lightsaber to have him toss it like "yea?  So? Go away".  LMAO!  

[LDubs]

You know what, I'm coming around here.  I need to watch it again...

[johnlgalt]

Rian's continued support of and explanations for his direction vision are certainly eye opening.

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[SamuriHL]

Well, it'll be out on March 27 which will be nice.  I want to see it a few more times myself.

[johnlgalt]

I'll just leave this here:

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[SamuriHL]

This is your only warning...next post is going to contain spoilers for Rebels literally as I'm watching it air.  If you've not seen it or don't want spoilers for it don't read beyond this post...

[SamuriHL]

Ok, I knew Kanaan was history as there's only 6 episodes left but damn that was harsh.  I was hoping for an epic lightsaber battle but that was still pretty damn epic.  Now let's see how they handle it.  2 episodes per week for 3 weeks is all we get.

[JB678]

Man I really enjoyed those 2 episodes last night.

A few thoughts:
I knew Kanan was gone the moment he lost his lightsaber in the fight with Rukh but damn that was crazy.
Governor Pryce is screwed when Thrawn gets back.
Really like the way they are setting up why the Star Dust project won out over Thrawn's TIE defender.
Sabine and Zeb vs. Rukh.

Can't wait until next week.


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