278 replies to this topic

[johnlgalt]

OK, to continue on, first I have to drop this here - great read:

 

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Kreia is Luke through the looking glass. Luke ends by committing himself to an ideal of goodness that transcends the Jedi, leaving it to a new generation to rewrite the canon. That new generation will be led by Rey but, symbolically, also the audience itself. Kreia wanted to just burn the whole thing down. Neither thought the Jedi should, or even could, be reformed.

 

re:  DJ - well, he's also getting a one-shot:

 

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Written by Acker and Blacker (I am not making this up).

 

And what if the fact that Snoke is not dead was the whole reason why they wrote Luke's final scenes in the way they did?  because if Snoke is still alive (and that would make him very, very powerful, indeed), then everyone, upon seeing it, will scream in frustration at not seeing that possibility because they were blinded by the fact that Luke was not really killed by Kylo Ren either.  Hmmm.

[SamuriHL]

OK, to continue on, first I have to drop this here - great read:

 

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re:  DJ - well, he's also getting a one-shot:

 

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Written by Acker and Blacker (I am not making this up).

 

And what if the fact that Snoke is not dead was the whole reason why they wrote Luke's final scenes in the way they did?  because if Snoke is still alive (and that would make him very, very powerful, indeed), then everyone, upon seeing it, will scream in frustration at not seeing that possibility because they were blinded by the fact that Luke was not really killed by Kylo Ren either.  Hmmm.

 

Yea, that was truly a revolutionary game and certainly parallels the Last Jedi quite well.  And this is what I mean about Rey getting to define what it means to be a "Jedi".  Traditionally they held to the "rules".  Even Qui Gon questioned it....referring to the living Force.  The council rejected that notion to their own demise.  The hubris of the Jedi was their undoing.  Even when Yoda was training Luke and Luke asked if the dark side was stronger, Yoda's answer was truly self-serving because if it were true he'd have not failed to defeat Sidious.  "For 800 years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained!"  And that's the f***ing problem summed up right there.  The Jedi was without a doubt a religious order.  To understand where Star Wars is headed we have to look at the place of religion in our own society and how it's changed over the past 40 years. [WARNING: The following may piss off a bunch of people and that is not my intent...]  The old religions have been shown to be corrupt and morally bankrupt even while professing to be virtuous.  Much the same way both the Jedi AND the Sith were.  Rey is charged with establishing a new Jedi order and defining what that means.  Hence the title of Force *Awakens*.  Last Jedi refers to Luke being the last traditionally trained Jedi, but, even his training was unconventional by Jedi standards.  Hence his willingness to let go of the old religious dogma and see the bigger picture.  I for one love it.

 

As for DJ, we'll see what the comic tells us.  I knew that was coming.  He's no stranger to the dark side of the galaxy, that's for sure.

 

Would make for some serious entertainment wouldn't it?  Snoke coming back and being like "listen, idiots, you've no idea the real power of the dark side of the Force."  It would also prove once and for all that he's not a Sith because killing one's master is the ONLY way a Sith becomes a master them-self.  And Snoke likely knows that and avoided that obvious pitfall.  If, he is in fact, still alive.  It's an interesting theory.

[johnlgalt]

I was drawing the parallels between the Jedi order and a mashup of various religions when I first saw Return.  I have to say I agree with your observations completely.

 

But, OTOH, if he *was* Sith, then guess who just became a Sith Master?

 

And even more poignant, if he was not Sith, then guess who thinks he is one but isn't?

[SnydersWeb]

I was drawing the parallels between the Jedi order and a mashup of various religions when I first saw Return. I have to say I agree with your observations completely.

But, OTOH, if he *was* Sith, then guess who just became a Sith Master?

And even more poignant, if he was not Sith, then guess who thinks he is one but isn't?

Or is being an all powerful ruler a general feature of those under the influence of the dark side?

I think Kylo knows he's conflicted. His grievances seem more personally driven than out of a desire for wonton murder. Palatine and Snoke were focused on intent and clear in their hearts as to who and what they were.



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[SamuriHL]

I was drawing the parallels between the Jedi order and a mashup of various religions when I first saw Return.  I have to say I agree with your observations completely.

 

But, OTOH, if he *was* Sith, then guess who just became a Sith Master?

 

And even more poignant, if he was not Sith, then guess who thinks he is one but isn't?

 

Exactly.  I think it falls into the latter category.  He's no Sith.  Delusions of grandeur. 

 

The religious undertones were always meant to be there.  It's just interesting how society has changed in that regard since A New Hope.  As such, Star Wars does need to evolve and I think Last Jedi is tackling that brilliantly.  This is what I meant when I said that Last Jedi will likely be the one that stands the test of time.  10, 15, 20 years from now it will be the movie that people resonate with and look back upon fondly for being bold and taking things in a new direction rather than retreading tired cliches.  Yes, it's divisive.  Yes, it pisses a lot of people off.  Yes, it's imperfect.  So was Empire when it first came out. 

[SamuriHL]

Or is being an all powerful ruler a general feature of those under the influence of the dark side?

I think Kylo knows he's conflicted. His grievances seem more personally driven than out of a desire for wonton murder. Palatine and Snoke were focused on intent and clear in their hearts as to who and what they were.



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Well, the Sith typically tried to rule the galaxy.  It was the prime conflict between Sith and Jedi even in old times when Yoda was a padawan.  The Sith were thought to be eradicated just before the time of Yoda's birth.  Mace Windu's completely arrogant statement that he didn't believe the Sith could return without the counsel's notice shows the hubris the Jedi had and why the Force needed to be balanced.  The Jedi read the prophecy in a way that suggested the chosen one would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith, not joining them.  Again, the Force had other plans to balance the power.  How can there be balance when a Jedi order exists but only 2 Sith?  One side will always rise to balance the other.  Snoke inherently knew that which is why he told Kylo Rey was his balance.  If Luke is gone, it stands to reason so is Snoke, but we'll see.  In any case, yes, the Sith always had designs on ruling the galaxy.

 

Kylo is no longer conflicted.  He's free of Luke, he's free of Han, he's free of Snoke (maybe).  He wants what Vader wanted....to rule the galaxy.  Call him a wannabe Sith.  Darth Tyranus would have a field day with Kylo.  (This is a thinly veiled reference to a scene with Count Dooku aka Darth Tyranus and Asaj Ventress during Clone Wars).  He would tell him he's no Sith and he'd be right.  He hasn't earned the privilege yet.  Yes, killing your master is part of it.  But to truly know the dark side, you have to do what Darth Vader had to do. Bath himself in the dark side of the Force.  Killing all in the Jedi temple, including younglings.  Kylo doesn't (yet) have it in him to be that dark.  Maybe he'll get there between Last Jedi and IX. 

[sparky697]

I think that's why I don't think he's a good villain yet, because of his conflictions. Hopefully he goes full evil in the next one.



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[SamuriHL]

That's because they're trying to show the parallels to "grandfather" and how Vader ultimately became conflicted once he learned that Luke was his son.  If you go back and watch Revenge of the Sith again, as I have so many times lol, you'll discover that Anakin made the transition to Darth Vader and then embraced the dark side to gain power.  But what pushed him completely over the edge was the lie that Palpatine told him at the very end when he asked about Padme.  Being told he killed her and he had no family left is what ultimately broke him and doomed him to become even more savage.  Remember that he personally hunted down the remaining Jedi and killed them.  Including his own padawan.  But when he finds out Luke is alive and that Palpatine had lied to him, it created that internal conflict.  The person who told him he could save Padme if he turned to the dark side had lied to him and betrayed him. 

 

Kylo has that conflict in the beginning.  Not blowing up Leia's command ship in Last Jedi shows he's still conflicted at that part of the movie.  But finding out Snoke has been manipulating him this whole time so that he could get his hands on Rey because Kylo was such a disappointment really pissed him off.  By design.  The Sith use passion and anger to increase their power.  Think of it a little like Neo being told he wasn't the one.  It's what he needed to hear in order to reach his full potential.  In the same way I truly feel Snoke was baiting Kylo to finally fully embrace the dark side in that moment.  "You suck, kid, I just used you to bring someone more powerful here that I can exploit".  "Well, f*** you, too, Snoke!"  LOL  Kylo is really a suburban emo rich kid raging against the machine.  LMAO  He needs a true personal sacrifice in order to become a Sith.  I do believe he's fully embraced the dark side at this point, but, I tend to agree he's not YET a compelling villain.

[johnlgalt]

Which then makes me wonder if the backstory before IX will somehow have Kylo finally killing off Leia, which 1) Allows him to disband all of his conflict, and 2) takes him another step closer to becoming a true Sith lord....

[SamuriHL]

That would be my guess as well. I'm not sure how it can be done though. At least not convincingly. It would have to be personal and she's not going to be in it. Not blowing up a ship from afar. It's too big of a scene to only make reference to I think. So I don't know how they pull that off.

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[johnlgalt]

CG, anyone?

[SamuriHL]

They've said they're not going to do that so I don't know what they'll end up doing.

[SnydersWeb]

They've said they're not going to do that so I don't know what they'll end up doing.

I would expect that they'll need to do at least some CG unless they plan to do it Alderaan style.

We saw Akbar on the bridge for a brief time before Kylo's wingmen blew it up.

Her untimely death definitely threw a monkey wrench into things.

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[SamuriHL]

I would expect that they'll need to do at least some CG unless they plan to do it Alderaan style.

We saw Akbar on the bridge for a brief time before Kylo's wingmen blew it up.

Her untimely death definitely threw a monkey wrench into things.

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Without a doubt.  She was said to be instrumental in the story for IX.  So now they're going to have to rethink it and figure out what to do.  But I know they said they won't be doing CG for her.  MAYBE they'll change their mind but I doubt it.  Knowing Abrams we'll have some time travel thing to contend with.  LMAO

[johnlgalt]

Or, they could do it like in a flashback, and have someone play her, but say, an older her, or even a hospitalized her, so no CG, but no real lines either, which is how he kills her - already on her deathbed.

 

But, since she was seemingly recovered from her jaunt in space at the end of Last Jedi, even that would be hard to pull off.

[SamuriHL]

It depends.  I truly believe we're going to do a 2 or 3 year time jump here so lots could happen in between.

[johnlgalt]

Including her demise without it being at Kylo Ren's hands, which still leaves him as a big ?

[SamuriHL]

Without any doubt the best lightsaber battle is Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader in Revenge of the Sith.  Watching it now and it was quite masterfully done.  Then again, Palpatine's "little green friend" was fun to watch, too.

[SnydersWeb]

Without any doubt the best lightsaber battle is Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader in Revenge of the Sith. Watching it now and it was quite masterfully done. Then again, Palpatine's "little green friend" was fun to watch, too.

Clone wars had a couple of good ones too. Palatine vs Maul come to mind. I also really enjoyed young Obi-wan vs Maul too in TPM.

On a different note.. What really killed Luke? Over exertion? Or did he just decide to become one with the force because it was the best way to continue influencing current events?

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[SamuriHL]

That Force trick took an enormous amount of energy to perform. You have to think that he blocked himself off from the force for a long time. So pulling that trick off pretty much used up as life force as it were.

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